Shugenja
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- Midnight_v
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Shugenja
No, I haven't created one... I'm asking has any ever created a "tome-style" shugenja for play?
I'm running a campaign set in a modified Rokgan setting. . . (I'm doing some short stories there too but thats besides the point.).
Some friends who've read most of that wank shit asked me to give it a go, I haven't played in a while but I know I prefer the tome series, so I introduced it to them. After much to do about nothing... I realized that I like some of the world, minus it not being really D&D, and the fact there's some really silly shit going on when I think about the Goddamn Evil nuclear fallout zone of undead.
So we had some concession talks.
1. We're using the tome series
2. There is gross modification to the story, and I've made it clear its set in D^D and not any traditional rokugan (i.e. don't fuck with me about the REAL rokugan this is a totally variant thing, and dont' worry much about "court" you'll be face stabbing.
3. They seriously only want a few classes to be avaliable and 1 of them has to be the shugenja.
TL;DR
The shugenja... I looked a that class... fuck. Its really bad. People I'm dm'ing want it as the primary caster class. Has anyone ever "Tomed" it? Should I be looking at the Elementalist, or maybe the Fire mage?
Further its divine and the dude who wants to play a water shugenja is expecting to heal.
I'm running a campaign set in a modified Rokgan setting. . . (I'm doing some short stories there too but thats besides the point.).
Some friends who've read most of that wank shit asked me to give it a go, I haven't played in a while but I know I prefer the tome series, so I introduced it to them. After much to do about nothing... I realized that I like some of the world, minus it not being really D&D, and the fact there's some really silly shit going on when I think about the Goddamn Evil nuclear fallout zone of undead.
So we had some concession talks.
1. We're using the tome series
2. There is gross modification to the story, and I've made it clear its set in D^D and not any traditional rokugan (i.e. don't fuck with me about the REAL rokugan this is a totally variant thing, and dont' worry much about "court" you'll be face stabbing.
3. They seriously only want a few classes to be avaliable and 1 of them has to be the shugenja.
TL;DR
The shugenja... I looked a that class... fuck. Its really bad. People I'm dm'ing want it as the primary caster class. Has anyone ever "Tomed" it? Should I be looking at the Elementalist, or maybe the Fire mage?
Further its divine and the dude who wants to play a water shugenja is expecting to heal.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
...If only you'd have stopped forever...Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
You could probably get away with just using the Elementalist and adding a few spells here or there to the list (like healing). Or, I don't know, if the Shugenja has any interesting or unique class features, port them over.
Bottom line, the Elementalist is a fun and interesting class. Something like the Fire Mage wouldn't have the "primary caster" feel your players are probably looking for.
Bottom line, the Elementalist is a fun and interesting class. Something like the Fire Mage wouldn't have the "primary caster" feel your players are probably looking for.
Out beyond the hull, mucoid strings of non-baryonic matter streamed past like Christ's blood in the firmament.
- Midnight_v
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Frankly no, it does not have any interesting things... and frankly the people playing don't seem to understand, but I'm going to save us all the headache and actually give them useful things and interesting things to I'm not bored as a Dm, or labeled as a killer dm, because they're not in the know. I actually started liking the idea of it.
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_Shugenja
Far better to click the link that read that spoiler.
The thing is I'm going to do a few levels of rokugani esqe samurai shit, but this is D&D not the Rokugan and so all the universal rules are getting tossed.
One of the themes of this is going to be "The problem of evil"... and mostly how the Kolat are right.
The Kami are essentially a race of God like~celestials (read aliens) who conquered a low magic/tech planet, that whole shit with fu leng was an accident, because there was already a "Dead God" sleeping on the world and they fucked with it. (so more lies were needed to fix the situation).
They put a hybrid off-spring (the Hantei line) on the throne then sat back and blissed out because they could and to jerk to how awesome the celestial order they established is, cause basically the rokugan world is on some "distant corner" of the Astral plane.
So the Races available are Aasimar, Human, Ratfolk(Tome Goblins, or dwarves... I don't care, because no ones playing that apparently cause they're ugly) ... and Changlings like from ebberon. Or anything that the peeps really want to play that doesn't make everyone else feel small in the pants or cry excessively about.
Really, though the insistence that they have 1 type of primary spell caster and it has to be the shugenja was boggling to me... they didn't want to use the Tome Assassin as the "Ninja" cause it had magic and weren't sure how it'd affect the dynamic of the world. In the end we went with it after I asked "Who's playing a ninja" and people just shrugged. Okay then the bad guy ninjas may well be assassins, but thats just more level approp: monsters so we went with it.
So yeah The shugenja it just boggles me... what a bad world the original L5R must have been. Damn. Its obviously a horror campaign... and the don't have much in the way of magic, amazing
So I'm looking right now at the elementalist and it looks like it might fit pretty well, I'll guess I'll put the divine tag on it an try to work up bonuses for saying "I'm an *element* shugenja" or whatever.
Still any further advice will be appreciated.
http://wiki.rpg.net/index.php/3.5_Shugenja
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the shugenja.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Shugenja are proficient with the Tantojutsu group plus one other group. They are also proficient with the wakizashi. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Spells: A shugenja casts divine spells, but his spell knowledge is limited, much like a sorcerer. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a shugenja must have an elemental ability score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s elemental ability score modifier. (See element focus, below, for elemental ability scores.)
Like other spellcasters, a shugenja can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Shugenja Spells Per Day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high elemental ability score.
A shugenja’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A shugenja begins play knowing two 0-level spells and one 1st-level spell of his element focus and two 0-level spells and one 1st-level spell of any element, plus one spell of each level determined by his shugenja school. At each new shugenja level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table:
Shugenja Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a shugenja knows is not affected by his elemental ability score; the numbers on Table: Shugenja Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the shugenja spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the shugenja has gained some understanding of by study. At least one spell at every level is determined by the shugenja’s school, as noted on Table: Shugenja Spells Known.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered shugenja level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a shugenja can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the shugenja “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level and element must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level shugenja spell the shugenja can cast. A shugenja may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. The shugenja may never swap the school spell he knows at any given level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a shugenja need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
Shugenja do not have spellbooks, though they write their spells on ofuda. These ofuda serve as divine focus items and must be read as part of the spellcasting process. Shugenja can use the Scribe Scroll feat to create magic scrolls that works just like a wizard’s or cleric’s scrolls. When casting metamagic spells, the shugenja must take more time to cast a metamagic spell than a regular spell. If its normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic spell is a full-round action. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell. Shugenja cannot use the Quicken Spell metamagic feat.
Element Focus: All shugenja must choose a favored element: Air, Earth, Fire or Water. A shugenja’s choice of element is determined by the clan school he attends. (Ronin shugenja may choose any element, but must choose school spells from the generic school lists.) This choice determines what spells the shugenja has access to, as well as the ability score the shugenja uses to cast spells. At least half the spells a shugenja knows must be of that element, and the spell dictated by the shugenja’s school is of that element as well. Shugenja automatically gain the benefits of the Spell Focus feat for spells of their favored element, and may select the Greater Spell Focus feat without first selecting Spell Focus, but if they choose this option, they may only apply the benefits of Greater Spell Focus to spells of the chosen school of magic that are also spells of their favored element.
As a cost of focusing so heavily on one element, the shugenja is barred from learning spells of another, opposing element, as described below.
Air: Air spells are subtle, involving travel, intuition, influence, divination and illusion. Earth is the prohibited element for air shugenja. The favored element ability score for Air is Charisma. To learn or cast a spell, an Air shugenja must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Air shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Charisma modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
Earth: Earth spells involve resilience and resolve, health and growth, the body and its strength. Air is the prohibited element for Earth shugenja. The favored element ability score for Earth is Constitution. To learn or cast a spell, an Earth shugenja must have Constitution score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Earth shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Constitution modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Constitution score.
Fire: Fire spells are destructive and blatant, but they also deal with intelligence, inspiration and creativity. Water is the prohibited element for Fire shugenja. The favored element ability score for Fire is Intelligence. To learn or cast a spell, a Fire shugenja must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Fire shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
Water: Water spells involve transformation, cleansing, healing and friendship. Fire is the prohibited element for Water shugenja. The favored element ability score for Water is Wisdom. To learn or cast a spell, a Water shugenja must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Water shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Wisdom modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.
Sense Elements (Sp): As a full round action, a shugenja can become aware of all sources of one chosen element (air, earth, fire or water) within 10 feet of himself. The shugenja learns the size category of the objects but not their precise location or nature.
By concentrating longer, a shugenja can either extend his senses or gather more information. Each additional round spent in concentration allows the shugenja to add 5 feet to the radius of his sense elements ability, to a maximum of 5 additional feet per shugenja level. Alternatively, the shugenja can focus on one source of the sensed element per round, attempting a Spellcraft check to determine more about that single item. The amount of information she learns depends on her Spellcraft check result
All of the following are class features of the shugenja.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Shugenja are proficient with the Tantojutsu group plus one other group. They are also proficient with the wakizashi. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield.
Spells: A shugenja casts divine spells, but his spell knowledge is limited, much like a sorcerer. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).
To learn or cast a spell, a shugenja must have an elemental ability score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s elemental ability score modifier. (See element focus, below, for elemental ability scores.)
Like other spellcasters, a shugenja can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Shugenja Spells Per Day. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high elemental ability score.
A shugenja’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A shugenja begins play knowing two 0-level spells and one 1st-level spell of his element focus and two 0-level spells and one 1st-level spell of any element, plus one spell of each level determined by his shugenja school. At each new shugenja level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table:
Shugenja Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a shugenja knows is not affected by his elemental ability score; the numbers on Table: Shugenja Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the shugenja spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the shugenja has gained some understanding of by study. At least one spell at every level is determined by the shugenja’s school, as noted on Table: Shugenja Spells Known.
Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered shugenja level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a shugenja can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the shugenja “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level and element must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level shugenja spell the shugenja can cast. A shugenja may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level. The shugenja may never swap the school spell he knows at any given level.
Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a shugenja need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his spells per day for that spell level. He does not have to decide ahead of time which spells he’ll cast.
Shugenja do not have spellbooks, though they write their spells on ofuda. These ofuda serve as divine focus items and must be read as part of the spellcasting process. Shugenja can use the Scribe Scroll feat to create magic scrolls that works just like a wizard’s or cleric’s scrolls. When casting metamagic spells, the shugenja must take more time to cast a metamagic spell than a regular spell. If its normal casting time is 1 action, casting a metamagic spell is a full-round action. For spells with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell. Shugenja cannot use the Quicken Spell metamagic feat.
Element Focus: All shugenja must choose a favored element: Air, Earth, Fire or Water. A shugenja’s choice of element is determined by the clan school he attends. (Ronin shugenja may choose any element, but must choose school spells from the generic school lists.) This choice determines what spells the shugenja has access to, as well as the ability score the shugenja uses to cast spells. At least half the spells a shugenja knows must be of that element, and the spell dictated by the shugenja’s school is of that element as well. Shugenja automatically gain the benefits of the Spell Focus feat for spells of their favored element, and may select the Greater Spell Focus feat without first selecting Spell Focus, but if they choose this option, they may only apply the benefits of Greater Spell Focus to spells of the chosen school of magic that are also spells of their favored element.
As a cost of focusing so heavily on one element, the shugenja is barred from learning spells of another, opposing element, as described below.
Air: Air spells are subtle, involving travel, intuition, influence, divination and illusion. Earth is the prohibited element for air shugenja. The favored element ability score for Air is Charisma. To learn or cast a spell, an Air shugenja must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Air shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Charisma modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.
Earth: Earth spells involve resilience and resolve, health and growth, the body and its strength. Air is the prohibited element for Earth shugenja. The favored element ability score for Earth is Constitution. To learn or cast a spell, an Earth shugenja must have Constitution score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Earth shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Constitution modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Constitution score.
Fire: Fire spells are destructive and blatant, but they also deal with intelligence, inspiration and creativity. Water is the prohibited element for Fire shugenja. The favored element ability score for Fire is Intelligence. To learn or cast a spell, a Fire shugenja must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Fire shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Intelligence modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.
Water: Water spells involve transformation, cleansing, healing and friendship. Fire is the prohibited element for Water shugenja. The favored element ability score for Water is Wisdom. To learn or cast a spell, a Water shugenja must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Water shugenja’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the shugenja’s Wisdom modifier. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score.
Sense Elements (Sp): As a full round action, a shugenja can become aware of all sources of one chosen element (air, earth, fire or water) within 10 feet of himself. The shugenja learns the size category of the objects but not their precise location or nature.
By concentrating longer, a shugenja can either extend his senses or gather more information. Each additional round spent in concentration allows the shugenja to add 5 feet to the radius of his sense elements ability, to a maximum of 5 additional feet per shugenja level. Alternatively, the shugenja can focus on one source of the sensed element per round, attempting a Spellcraft check to determine more about that single item. The amount of information she learns depends on her Spellcraft check result
The thing is I'm going to do a few levels of rokugani esqe samurai shit, but this is D&D not the Rokugan and so all the universal rules are getting tossed.
One of the themes of this is going to be "The problem of evil"... and mostly how the Kolat are right.
The Kami are essentially a race of God like~celestials (read aliens) who conquered a low magic/tech planet, that whole shit with fu leng was an accident, because there was already a "Dead God" sleeping on the world and they fucked with it. (so more lies were needed to fix the situation).
They put a hybrid off-spring (the Hantei line) on the throne then sat back and blissed out because they could and to jerk to how awesome the celestial order they established is, cause basically the rokugan world is on some "distant corner" of the Astral plane.
So the Races available are Aasimar, Human, Ratfolk(Tome Goblins, or dwarves... I don't care, because no ones playing that apparently cause they're ugly) ... and Changlings like from ebberon. Or anything that the peeps really want to play that doesn't make everyone else feel small in the pants or cry excessively about.
Really, though the insistence that they have 1 type of primary spell caster and it has to be the shugenja was boggling to me... they didn't want to use the Tome Assassin as the "Ninja" cause it had magic and weren't sure how it'd affect the dynamic of the world. In the end we went with it after I asked "Who's playing a ninja" and people just shrugged. Okay then the bad guy ninjas may well be assassins, but thats just more level approp: monsters so we went with it.
So yeah The shugenja it just boggles me... what a bad world the original L5R must have been. Damn. Its obviously a horror campaign... and the don't have much in the way of magic, amazing
So I'm looking right now at the elementalist and it looks like it might fit pretty well, I'll guess I'll put the divine tag on it an try to work up bonuses for saying "I'm an *element* shugenja" or whatever.
Still any further advice will be appreciated.
Last edited by Midnight_v on Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
...If only you'd have stopped forever...Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
- CatharzGodfoot
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As a 'shugenja', the elementalist is great. You could allow your players to spend a feat to add spells from a shugenja school to the class list, or you could just straight-up add it at no cost (they tend to be underwhelming).
The one issue is that your players might want to have banned elements, as silly as that may be. In that case, cut out spells as appropriate from the class list, restrict advanced learning, get rid of one of the 'create' abilities (depending on the banned element), and of course add at least one school and all of the spells on the shugenja list of the appropriate element. In this case, though, I'd allow specialists to have any one restricted element based on school. That way you can have water shugenja with earth banned, or whatever.
The one issue is that your players might want to have banned elements, as silly as that may be. In that case, cut out spells as appropriate from the class list, restrict advanced learning, get rid of one of the 'create' abilities (depending on the banned element), and of course add at least one school and all of the spells on the shugenja list of the appropriate element. In this case, though, I'd allow specialists to have any one restricted element based on school. That way you can have water shugenja with earth banned, or whatever.
Last edited by CatharzGodfoot on Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- Midnight_v
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Yeah they do want banned elements...CatharzGodfoot wrote:As a 'shugenja', the elementalist is great. You could allow your players to spend a feat to add spells from a shugenja school to the class list, or you could just straight-up add it at no cost (they tend to be underwhelming).
The one issue is that your players might want to have banned elements, as silly as that may be. In that case, cut out spells as appropriate from the class list, restrict advanced learning, get rid of one of the 'create' abilities (depending on the banned element), and of course add at least one school and all of the spells on the shugenja list of the appropriate element. In this case, though, I'd allow specialists to have any one restricted element based on school. That way you can have water shugenja with earth banned, or whatever.
and I was like "Wait WUT?"
I'll try to give that a go the second section, but really I'm trying to just get them to say "Okay I'm a fire shugenja I don't use X" and I'll give them some bonus for the self nerfing.
But yeah i do agree with the "pick one school you don't use thing"
I'm not sure what you mean by "add at least one school", but the rest of what you said helps a lot.and of course add at least one school and all of the spells on the shugenja list of the appropriate element.
The elemental wildshaping, I really like it oddly. . . That helps quite a bit making them not suck. Man thanks the advice. Any others?
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
...If only you'd have stopped forever...Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
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Shugenja spells come from two different sets: elements and schools. In the setting, all shugenja are trained in a 'school of magic'. These are actual schools, not arbitrary divisions like 'abjuration' and 'evocation'. Based on the school they were trained by, they have an elemental specialty (which determines which elements they can use) and a school (which is basically a domain).Midnight_v wrote:I'm not sure what you mean by "add at least one school", but the rest of what you said helps a lot.and of course add at least one school and all of the spells on the shugenja list of the appropriate element.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
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Win Game.
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Caught it. Thanks I'm still spinning myself up on the worlds details fully, but trying not to over invest too much. They know a little more than me of the place which is why I'm like "This is an alternate Rokugan... etc" so you know they can have a simlar experience without all the "encyclopedia L5R" and all that fapping that accompanies it. Katana's and a good time.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
...If only you'd have stopped forever...Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
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People are going to want to be able to be a generalist, and for that the Elementalist works fine. They assume Wood instead of Void, but Void never did anything interesting anyway and Earth got a bunch of Wood effects because apparently it wasn't already better than you enough. If you just leave the spell list as-is it's pretty much what most Rokugani Shugenja appear to be casting.
People are also going to want to be an Elemental Specialist. For that you're going to want to use stuff like the Fire Mage. The actual Fire Mage is a perfectly acceptable Fire Specialist. Air, Earth, Water, and Void Specialists would have to be created, because those elements don't do what they do in most settings. The Air Specialist would be a Diviner, and the Void Specialist would be an Enchanter with a bunch of Luck/Fate powers. The Earth Specialist would be an abjurer who fought using telekinesis. The Water Specialist would be a battlefield control specialist who also did time control and teleportation.
Other than that, people are going to want access to various clan-themed prestige classes. But you can also write those as you go.
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People are also going to want to be an Elemental Specialist. For that you're going to want to use stuff like the Fire Mage. The actual Fire Mage is a perfectly acceptable Fire Specialist. Air, Earth, Water, and Void Specialists would have to be created, because those elements don't do what they do in most settings. The Air Specialist would be a Diviner, and the Void Specialist would be an Enchanter with a bunch of Luck/Fate powers. The Earth Specialist would be an abjurer who fought using telekinesis. The Water Specialist would be a battlefield control specialist who also did time control and teleportation.
Other than that, people are going to want access to various clan-themed prestige classes. But you can also write those as you go.
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RobbyPants did some nice elemental mages too.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... pic=9459.0
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... pic=9459.0
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- Midnight_v
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Wow thanks.. that makes what frank was suggesting easier by far.sigma999 wrote:RobbyPants did some nice elemental mages too.
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards ... pic=9459.0
I was sitting there thinking "fuck, I don't wanna custom indiviual specialists classes" that helps I mean they're casters with advanced learning, so I can get away with tome Samurai and Robbys elementals and not hear too much whining about "fighters getting nice things".
Thanks
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
...If only you'd have stopped forever...Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
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Those classes are fine as a conceptual starting point, but the key is that the elements they represent don't really fit with the shugenja elements the players will want. I mean, aside from the fact that Robby's Geomancer is basically terrible, when people want Rokugan Earth Magic they want stuff like Magic Circle Against Evil to be front and center.
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I'm curious what you find terrible about it? How would you improve it?FrankTrollman wrote:Those classes are fine as a conceptual starting point, but the key is that the elements they represent don't really fit with the shugenja elements the players will want. I mean, aside from the fact that Robby's Geomancer is basically terrible, when people want Rokugan Earth Magic they want stuff like Magic Circle Against Evil to be front and center.
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Terrible... well its not worse than the regular shugenja really, but in anycase, I went an looked at that spell list. Frank you're right but why the hell is magic circle an earth spell? I see I'm looking at it wrong and that the rokugani spellists are pretty varied in some ways.RobbyPants wrote:I'm curious what you find terrible about it? How would you improve it?FrankTrollman wrote:Those classes are fine as a conceptual starting point, but the key is that the elements they represent don't really fit with the shugenja elements the players will want. I mean, aside from the fact that Robby's Geomancer is basically terrible, when people want Rokugan Earth Magic they want stuff like Magic Circle Against Evil to be front and center.
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Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
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Robby, maybe you should gank all the Shugenja and Wu-Jen elemental spells and slap them on the Elementalist lists.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
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Well, it's a list of a pile of Earth or Stone spells with some melee combat concessions in its power list. Essentially it's a Dread Necromancer with its stuff being repurposed towards stone. Not a bad idea, just one that would have required more analysis to get off the ground. Because frankly, the low level Earth spells are terrible for the most part, and those that aren't are very marginal. Hail of Stone is a joke. It's a Burning Hands with a slightly different shape. Foundation of Stone is only good for anything if you are literally setting spells on fire just before an ambush, and it's not even that good for that.RobbyPants wrote:I'm curious what you find terrible about it? How would you improve it?
The thing is that the Dread Necromancer works at low levels because for whatever random reason he really does have some low level self-synergy and can genuinely compete at killing things. He can add a chill touch spell to his natural bad touch abilities and that adds up to a world of pain at 1st level and he can genuinely kill enemies. This Geomancer guy is walking in with his best spell being Sandblast. Now, Sandblast is a great spell, and its existence really makes the Druid substantially more powerful than he already was. At high level, it's basically the same thing as Color Spray, but for a Druid. But here's the problem: at low level, it's not. It's still just a weird area of 1 turn Stun, it doesn't actually drop Orcish Warriors that often.
At first level you really do need some way to drop Orcish Warriors or you need to be really tough, or both. And having a poorly written +1 bonus to your Natural Armor AC bonus is not enough to count for either. The class needs to answer the question "How am I taking out enemies?" And right now the Geomancer only has a real answer to that question when Bands of Steel comes online at 6th level.
But it's really neither here nor there. The real point is that when someone wants an "Earth Shugenja" they want to be coming in there as a protection/purification specialist who is telekinetically moving stone from level 1. Not someone who gets a Natty Armor bonus almost too small to notice and a pile of generally sub-mediocre spells out of the Spell Compendium.
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Probably using This Elementalist or something similar.For Valor wrote:So the Elementalist should be used instead of the Shugenja?
Is that a Rogue-level class?
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I'm in favor of separate classes for each element.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
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LOL, the specilist version of the shugenja...sigma999 wrote:I'm in favor of separate classes for each element.
Its just that theres' a degree of suckage there Sigma.
I'm starting to realize why the rokugan is really actually a horro campaign and its not because of the taint. Its because the classes are really weak. . .
I see know that it really is a matter of them not having clerics not having mages, yet having really fuck-you variety monsters. A divine version of the elementalist might work really well if I staple curative magics onto the lists, but it is a bit of a headache... starting from scratch. Which is why I've asked if they've had any work done on them here.
So I'll try to sell that idea. . . "play the generalist + spells" Its divine so I'll ad curative and warding to the schools that get it... really I think they need elemental wildshape into their element.
I'm also thinking I'm going to find some way of relaxing the taint rules. What a ridiculous non productive invention in that world, since apparently being tainted means you're outcast, and almost every monster you face infects you with taint.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
...If only you'd have stopped forever...Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
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Yes it would seem the problem is with taint, then.
Either cut that shit out or give the spellcasters (and maybe through Heal checks?) some better means of removing taint.
Either cut that shit out or give the spellcasters (and maybe through Heal checks?) some better means of removing taint.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
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Thanks. The classes aren't fully complete, and this is the type of stuff I need. Now, I need to figure out if I want to make up that low level deficiency with more class features or more/better spells. The first level spell list is pretty sparse, which means I'll likely have to make up my own home-brew spells. That could be a good idea.FrankTrollman wrote:<snip>RobbyPants wrote:I'm curious what you find terrible about it? How would you improve it?
No, that makes sense. I wouldn't have suggested it for that, either.FrankTrollman wrote:But it's really neither here nor there. The real point is that when someone wants an "Earth Shugenja" they want to be coming in there as a protection/purification specialist who is telekinetically moving stone from level 1. Not someone who gets a Natty Armor bonus almost too small to notice and a pile of generally sub-mediocre spells out of the Spell Compendium.
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The more I think about it, the more it seems like you'd be better off using the Avatar setting.
The law in its majestic equality forbids the rich as well as the poor from stealing bread, begging and sleeping under bridges.
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Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
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-Anatole France
Mount Flamethrower on rear
Drive in reverse
Win Game.
-Josh Kablack